Talk:Wu Chinese

:::::"That's just silly" is no resolution. I do not believe you can claim that Standard Mandarin occupies a position of advantage in people's belief systems beyond its practicality in obtaining gainful employment, communication, and the like. In Shanghai and Guangzhou/dong, not being able to speak Shanghainese or Cantonese puts you at a disadvantage (see Leslie Chang's "Factory Girls" for the Cantonese claim). If any version carries prestige, it is clearly not the stuffy language of government officials. Albeit Mandarin carries an air of literary grace when used in dialect operas, literary gracefulness and social prestige are two very different things. People just don't talk in Chinese opera lyrics. The mindset of the Chinese is simply not the same, and there is nothing so hard to understand about that. Does anyone have a rational argument in favor of inclusion or believe the arguments above are flawed in some way? [[User:D.s.ronis|-Devin (d.s.ronis)]] ([[User talk:D.s.ronis|talk]]) 13:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

:::::"That's just silly" is no resolution. I do not believe you can claim that Standard Mandarin occupies a position of advantage in people's belief systems beyond its practicality in obtaining gainful employment, communication, and the like. In Shanghai and Guangzhou/dong, not being able to speak Shanghainese or Cantonese puts you at a disadvantage (see Leslie Chang's "Factory Girls" for the Cantonese claim). If any version carries prestige, it is clearly not the stuffy language of government officials. Albeit Mandarin carries an air of literary grace when used in dialect operas, literary gracefulness and social prestige are two very different things. People just don't talk in Chinese opera lyrics. The mindset of the Chinese is simply not the same, and there is nothing so hard to understand about that. Does anyone have a rational argument in favor of inclusion or believe the arguments above are flawed in some way? [[User:D.s.ronis|-Devin (d.s.ronis)]] ([[User talk:D.s.ronis|talk]]) 13:03, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

::::::I am largely in agreement with user D.s.ronis on this matter. Having lived in the Shanghai-Jiangsu-Zhejiang triangle I can shed some light on the situation. Back when Mandarin was not yet the national language the local ''lingua franca'' was essentially Suzhou dialect, and in the early part of the 20th century evolved to become Shanghainese. Of course, this is heavily dependent on who is speaking, the age of the speaker, the location, and the social setting. A Wuxi'er talking to someone from Zhenjiang would not switch to Suzhou dialect to talk to each other - most often they would just try to get by without any sort of code-switching. A person from Wenzhou talking to someone from Hangzhou would definitely not switch to Shanghainese, nor do either party perceive Shanghainese to be a 'higher' dialect. Nowadays especially, very few people perceive Shanghainese or Suzhouhua to be any ''more'' prestigious than Hangzhou or Wuxi dialect. To call Shanghainese/Suzhou a 'prestige dialect' in the normal sense of the word is not necessarily inappropriate if we are talking about early 20the century (and times before that), but the nuances of the situation should be described in the article.

I also just find user Kwami's comments to be basically unsubstantiated assertions, nor do I find his accusations of User D.s.ronis to be fair. I urge that he shed this type of dismissive attitude and engage the discussion with sourcing to back up his statements. [[User:Colipon|Colipon]]+([[User talk:Colipon|Talk]]) 14:17, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

::::::I am largely in agreement with user D.s.ronis on this matter. Having lived in the Shanghai-Jiangsu-Zhejiang triangle I can shed some light on the situation. Back when Mandarin was not yet the national language the local ''lingua franca'' was essentially Suzhou dialect, and in the early part of the 20th century evolved to become Shanghainese. Of course, this is heavily dependent on who is speaking, the age of the speaker, the location, and the social setting. A Wuxi'er talking to someone from Zhenjiang would not switch to Suzhou dialect to talk to each other - most often they would just try to get by without any sort of code-switching. A person from Wenzhou talking to someone from Hangzhou would definitely not switch to Shanghainese, nor do either party perceive Shanghainese to be a 'higher' dialect. Nowadays especially, very few people perceive Shanghainese or Suzhouhua to be any ''more'' prestigious than Hangzhou or Wuxi dialect. To call Shanghainese/Suzhou a 'prestige dialect' in the normal sense of the word is not necessarily inappropriate if we are talking about early 20the century (and times before that), but the nuances of the situation should be described in the article.{{pb}}I also just find user Kwami's comments to be basically unsubstantiated assertions, nor do I find his accusations of User D.s.ronis to be fair. I urge that he shed this type of dismissive attitude and engage the discussion with sourcing to back up his statements. [[User:Colipon|Colipon]]+([[User talk:Colipon|Talk]]) 14:17, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

== William plant ==

== William plant ==

:'''Support''' – '''''1.The narrative conventions：'''''In Wikipedia, Hindustani language is classified into '''''Hindi''''' and '''''Urdu''''' and is described as ''different languages''. Also, Malayic languages, either basis for national standards Malaysian in Malaysia and Indonesian in Indonesia. Also the title of Malayic languages in Borneo, Malay Peninsula, Sumatra, Java, etc. They are '''''not described as Malayic/Malays but language'''''.

:'''Support''' – '''''1.The narrative conventions：'''''In Wikipedia, Hindustani language is classified into '''''Hindi''''' and '''''Urdu''''' and is described as ''different languages''. Also, Malayic languages, either basis for national standards Malaysian in Malaysia and Indonesian in Indonesia. Also the title of Malayic languages in Borneo, Malay Peninsula, Sumatra, Java, etc. They are '''''not described as Malayic/Malays but language'''''.

:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayic_languages#Languages

:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malayic_languages#Languages

:'''''2.In the above discussion,''''' it is regarded as having mutual intelligibility with Chinese. It has also been pointed out that Modern Standard Chinese and those languages ​​are not mutually intelligible. As a speaker with full command of Cantonese and partial command of Min & Wu languages. I can confirm the speakers of Modern Chinese and the above languages ​​cannot understand each other without learning each other's language.

:'''''2.In the above discussion,''''' it is regarded as having mutual intelligibility with Chinese. It has also been pointed out that Modern Standard Chinese and those languages are not mutually intelligible. As a speaker with full command of Cantonese and partial command of Min & Wu languages. I can confirm the speakers of Modern Chinese and the above languages cannot understand each other without learning each other's language.

:'''''From my perspective, non-Mandarin''' Sinitic Languages ​​in '''southern China''' such as''' Wu, Min and Yue''' can and are more suitable to use “language” rather than “Chinese” for suffixes. Furthermore, this also conforms to the translation principle of "''吳'''語'''''" to "''Wu '''language'''''" which is more literal.''

:'''''From my perspective, non-Mandarin''' Sinitic Languages in '''southern China''' such as''' Wu, Min and Yue''' can and are more suitable to use “language” rather than “Chinese” for suffixes. Furthermore, this also conforms to the translation principle of "''吳'''語'''''" to "''Wu '''language'''''" which is more literal.''

:'''''3.From the people:''''' ''Internationally,'' Yue Language, which uses Cantonese as the standard, is regarded as "Languages" along with Mandarin. This is similar to the case of Hindustani.

:'''''3.From the people:''''' ''Internationally,'' Yue Language, which uses Cantonese as the standard, is regarded as "Languages" along with Mandarin. This is similar to the case of Hindustani.

:''Within the border of China,'' Wu, Yue and some other languages ​​are regarded as dialects, a partial confusion based in part on the specific relationship between Chinese ethnotypes and languages. But when you seriously explore this question, the answer may not be so superficial. Based on the fact of the non-interoperability, many Chinese people will be confused by this and even directly regard it as a different language, so this does not have Absolute direction.

:''Within the border of China,'' Wu, Yue and some other languages are regarded as dialects, a partial confusion based in part on the specific relationship between Chinese ethnotypes and languages. But when you seriously explore this question, the answer may not be so superficial. Based on the fact of the non-interoperability, many Chinese people will be confused by this and even directly regard it as a different language, so this does not have Absolute direction.

:''''' In my point of view, calling “吳/閩/粵語” as “Wu/Min/Yue Chinese” is controversial and ambiguous, while “Wu/Min/Yue language“ isn‘t.''''' [[User:Chakanamo|Chakanamo]] ([[User talk:Chakanamo|talk]]) 04:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

:''''' In my point of view, calling “吳/閩/粵語” as “Wu/Min/Yue Chinese” is controversial and ambiguous, while “Wu/Min/Yue language“ isn‘t.''''' [[User:Chakanamo|Chakanamo]] ([[User talk:Chakanamo|talk]]) 04:17, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

::None of this is relevant.

::None of this is relevant.