Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 111

::We're headed in the right direction. But, I don't think that because the article passed GA is a good reason to not make the necessary changes. However, if Montanabw is opposed to a history that is comprehensive enough to bring the Dobie quote into context (since Dobie was talking about the population in 1848) maybe we should just leave it out entirely. Just because the BLM makes a statement about it doesn't mean it belongs here.[[User:SheriWysong|Lynn Wysong]] ([[User talk:SheriWysong|talk]]) 22:12, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

::We're headed in the right direction. But, I don't think that because the article passed GA is a good reason to not make the necessary changes. However, if Montanabw is opposed to a history that is comprehensive enough to bring the Dobie quote into context (since Dobie was talking about the population in 1848) maybe we should just leave it out entirely. Just because the BLM makes a statement about it doesn't mean it belongs here.[[User:SheriWysong|Lynn Wysong]] ([[User talk:SheriWysong|talk]]) 22:12, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

::We could start the history here: By the beginning of the 20th century, most feral horses were found in the inhospitable desert regions of the [[Great Basin]] and the [[Red Desert (Wyoming) | Red Desert]] of [[Wyoming]], where, for the most part, they are found today[http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/wo/Planning_and_Renewable_Resources/wild_horses_and_burros/public_land_stats/2015_maps.Par.79082.File.dat/20141203_HMA_National_Map_18x24_Map1%20(2).pdf "BLM HMA Map"] and where, for the most part, they are descended from horses settlers/ranchers once allowed to run free on the public rangelands to be rounded up as they needed them for sale or use.Young and Sparks, ''Cattle in the Cold Desert'' p. 217 In 1899, the State of [[Nevada]] began efforts to reduce the numbers of unbranded horses on the range,Amaral, ''Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses'' p. 133 but by 1900, when the numbers may have reached a peak of 100,000 feral or semi-feral horses in the state,Amaral, ''Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses'' p. 24 the demand for horses in the [[Boer War]] then [[Horses in World War I | World War I]] reduced the oversupply.McKnight ''The Feral Horse in Anglo America'' p.514 However, after World War I, as motorized vehicles and tractors became commonplace,Amaral, ''Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses'' p. 132. horse populations on the range were no longer being kept in check by the ranchers removing them for use as beasts of burden and they began to be rounded up to be slaughtered for chicken food.Amaral, ''Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses'' p. 135. A few years later, in 1924, demand for horsemeat increased for use in pet food.McKnight, ''The Feral Horse in Anglo America'' p.515 By 1934, when the pressure on them intensified because the federal government got into the act of controlling their numbers,Amaral, ''Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses'' p. 139 there were approximately 150,000 feral horses on public land in the 11 Western States.Sherrets [https://archive.org/details/taylorgrazingact5515unit/page/40 of Wild Horses on Rangeland Management''"] p. 40 After decades of unregulated cattle, sheep and horse grazing, the range was becoming overgrazed, which had led to the passage of the 1934 [[Taylor Grazing Act]].Sharp, Lee, (1984) [https://archive.org/details/taylorgrazingact5515unit/page/9 of the Taylor Grazing Act''"]U. S. Dept. of Interior, Bureau of Land Management Idaho State Office, [https://archive.org/details/taylorgrazingact5515unit "''The Taylor Grazing Act, 1934-1984, 50 Years of Progress''"[[User:SheriWysong|Lynn Wysong]] ([[User talk:SheriWysong|talk]]) 22:12, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

::We could start the history here: By the beginning of the 20th century, most feral horses were found in the inhospitable desert regions of the [[Great Basin]] and the [[Red Desert (Wyoming) | Red Desert]] of [[Wyoming]], where, for the most part, they are found today[http://www.blm.gov/style/medialib/blm/wo/Planning_and_Renewable_Resources/wild_horses_and_burros/public_land_stats/2015_maps.Par.79082.File.dat/20141203_HMA_National_Map_18x24_Map1%20(2).pdf "BLM HMA Map"] and where, for the most part, they are descended from horses settlers/ranchers once allowed to run free on the public rangelands to be rounded up as they needed them for sale or use.Young and Sparks, ''Cattle in the Cold Desert'' p. 217 In 1899, the State of [[Nevada]] began efforts to reduce the numbers of unbranded horses on the range,Amaral, ''Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses'' p. 133 but by 1900, when the numbers may have reached a peak of 100,000 feral or semi-feral horses in the state,Amaral, ''Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses'' p. 24 the demand for horses in the [[Boer War]] then [[Horses in World War I | World War I]] reduced the oversupply.McKnight ''The Feral Horse in Anglo America'' p.514 However, after World War I, as motorized vehicles and tractors became commonplace,Amaral, ''Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses'' p. 132. horse populations on the range were no longer being kept in check by the ranchers removing them for use as beasts of burden and they began to be rounded up to be slaughtered for chicken food.Amaral, ''Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses'' p. 135. A few years later, in 1924, demand for horsemeat increased for use in pet food.McKnight, ''The Feral Horse in Anglo America'' p.515 By 1934, when the pressure on them intensified because the federal government got into the act of controlling their numbers,Amaral, ''Mustang, Life and Legends of Nevada's Wild Horses'' p. 139 there were approximately 150,000 feral horses on public land in the 11 Western States.Sherrets [https://archive.org/details/taylorgrazingact5515unit/page/40 of Wild Horses on Rangeland Management] p. 40 After decades of unregulated cattle, sheep and horse grazing, the range was becoming overgrazed, which had led to the passage of the 1934 [[Taylor Grazing Act]].Sharp, Lee, (1984) [https://archive.org/details/taylorgrazingact5515unit/page/9 of the Taylor Grazing Act]U. S. Dept. of Interior, Bureau of Land Management Idaho State Office, [https://archive.org/details/taylorgrazingact5515unit "''The Taylor Grazing Act, 1934-1984, 50 Years of Progress''"[[User:SheriWysong|Lynn Wysong]] ([[User talk:SheriWysong|talk]]) 22:12, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

{{reflist}}

{{reflist}}

By 1939, the U.S. Grazing Service (the predecessor to the BLM) began to directly hire people to remove horses from public land.{{cite book|last1=Wyman|first1=Walker Demarquis|title=The Wild Horse of the West|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=pXxYpn1JDdsC|publisher=University of Nebraska Press|accessdate=28 March 2015|page=170|date=1963}} The [[United States Forest Service]] periodically gave ranchers notice to round up their strays and thereafter shot any remaining horses. After World War II, horses were removed in larger numbers to meet the demands of the pet food market. By the 1950s, the free-roaming horse population was down to an estimated 25,000 animals.{{cite book|last1=Curnutt|first1=Jordan|title=Animals and the Law: A Sourcebook|publisher=ABC-CLIO|isbn=9781576071472|page=142|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=p2p0MptGeBkC}}

By 1939, the U.S. Grazing Service (the predecessor to the BLM) began to directly hire people to remove horses from public land.{{cite book|last1=Wyman|first1=Walker Demarquis|title=The Wild Horse of the West|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=pXxYpn1JDdsC|publisher=University of Nebraska Press|accessdate=28 March 2015|page=170|date=1963}} The [[United States Forest Service]] periodically gave ranchers notice to round up their strays and thereafter shot any remaining horses. After World War II, horses were removed in larger numbers to meet the demands of the pet food market. By the 1950s, the free-roaming horse population was down to an estimated 25,000 animals.{{cite book|last1=Curnutt|first1=Jordan|title=Animals and the Law: A Sourcebook|publisher=ABC-CLIO|isbn=9781576071472|page=142|url=https://books.google.com/books?id=p2p0MptGeBkC}}

{{reflist}}

{{reflist}}

====Another arbitrary section break====

====Another arbitrary section break====

The dispute has two layers. The first, and let me get it out of the way since it's the shortest, is over editing practice. [[User:RebSmith]] was in the process of making good-faith edits improving the content of the page and bringing it closer to NPOV. These edits did not use the best citation practice, so a "legalist" could say they were OR, but somebody here to build an encyclopedia could have been improved immediately by simply moving her citations around. Instead of making these immediate improvements, reverts were made, repeatedly and aggressively, without discussion. There is a kind of gaslighting going on, too, with [[User:Nishidani]] and [[User:Malik Shabazz]] repeatedly saying on the talk page that I and RebSmith have not read policy while never really arguing their point based on stated policy. And further gaslighting, claiming RebSmith is calling solely for "popular sources written by dilettanti", nevermind what she outlined above. Incivility from the beginning to the end, starting with bad manners and moving onward from there.

The dispute has two layers. The first, and let me get it out of the way since it's the shortest, is over editing practice. [[User:RebSmith]] was in the process of making good-faith edits improving the content of the page and bringing it closer to NPOV. These edits did not use the best citation practice, so a "legalist" could say they were OR, but somebody here to build an encyclopedia could have been improved immediately by simply moving her citations around. Instead of making these immediate improvements, reverts were made, repeatedly and aggressively, without discussion. There is a kind of gaslighting going on, too, with [[User:Nishidani]] and [[User:Malik Shabazz]] repeatedly saying on the talk page that I and RebSmith have not read policy while never really arguing their point based on stated policy. And further gaslighting, claiming RebSmith is calling solely for "popular sources written by dilettanti", nevermind what she outlined above. Incivility from the beginning to the end, starting with bad manners and moving onward from there.

On top of that there is now this gripe about canvassing. A bully who reverts instead of fixes a newcomer's content complains that I "canvassed" his (one) victim (in implied violation of [[WP:CAN]] by telling <strike>himstrike> her I reported his conduct. In addition to being deeply out of line with basic morality and the spirit of [[WP:CAN]], that's an abuse of the meaning of the word "canvassing" in English! This kind of gaslighting and wikilawyering must stop and we must return to normal editing practice. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Bkalafut|Bkalafut]] ([[User talk:Bkalafut|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bkalafut|contribs]]) 04:11, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

On top of that there is now this gripe about canvassing. A bully who reverts instead of fixes a newcomer's content complains that I "canvassed" his (one) victim (in implied violation of [[WP:CAN]] by telling <s>hims> her I reported his conduct. In addition to being deeply out of line with basic morality and the spirit of [[WP:CAN]], that's an abuse of the meaning of the word "canvassing" in English! This kind of gaslighting and wikilawyering must stop and we must return to normal editing practice. — Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:Bkalafut|Bkalafut]] ([[User talk:Bkalafut|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Bkalafut|contribs]]) 04:11, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

The second and more important is over NPOV and RS, and (from my point of view) [[WP:UNDUE]] with a dash of [[WP:OWN]]. An article about Islam and antisemitism needs to be about Islam and antisemitism meaning it needs (among other things) to give the reader a sense of how prevalent antisemitic attitudes are among Muslims and why antisemitic Muslims (qua Muslims) are antisemitic. If the Koran is part of the problem (and it is) a section on the Koran would be most useful. Proposing building this up verse by verse to avoid even the appearance of original research (because heaven forbid the sources are in the section and not verse by verse!)--was offered as a kind of olive branch but rejected.

The second and more important is over NPOV and RS, and (from my point of view) [[WP:UNDUE]] with a dash of [[WP:OWN]]. An article about Islam and antisemitism needs to be about Islam and antisemitism meaning it needs (among other things) to give the reader a sense of how prevalent antisemitic attitudes are among Muslims and why antisemitic Muslims (qua Muslims) are antisemitic. If the Koran is part of the problem (and it is) a section on the Koran would be most useful. Proposing building this up verse by verse to avoid even the appearance of original research (because heaven forbid the sources are in the section and not verse by verse!)--was offered as a kind of olive branch but rejected.